NIGHT BUSINESS: An Interview with Benjamin Marra

I have Sean T. Collins to thank for bringing Benjamin Marra to my attention, first in his review of Marra's Night Business comics, then in his audio and transcription of the "New Action" panel he (Collins) moderated at Small Press Expo, in which Marra participated. All of that intrigued me enough to order the first two issues (all that have been published at the time of this writing) of Night Business. Besides Sean's review, with which I entirely agree, Frank Santoro's at Comics Comics and Samuel Rules's at Are You a Serious Comic Book Reader? are certainly worth a gander.

Marra's previous interviews include:

• Lost at E Minor
• Illustrophile
• Slamxhype
• Vice

And here is mine.

1. Okay, let's talk about Night Business, the introspective story of your struggles as an awkward, sickly, sensitive young artist. So far, I'm finding it pretty heartwarming.

A bit more seriously, though, you've mentioned that NB is partly a reaction to indie autobio comics--is that to say creators and fans of those comics are part of your intended audience? Are you actually making some kind of statement to them? Given that you're trying to be provocative, whether of the autobio crowd or the broader indie comics scene, what kinds of responses are you hoping to provoke? What responses have you gotten? How strongly do you identify yourself as an indie comics creator, and how much does this provocative aspect of your work hinge on that identification?

Har. I dig your sarcasm. I do include fans of indie, autobio comics as fans or potential fans of Night Business. But I hope that they'll read it and never admit to anyone or themselves that it secretly touches them in a place they love and yearn to be touched. Yes, I am making a statement to indie comic fans. My statement is indie comics don't always have to be indulgent, pitying, self-analyses of despair, sadness and self-importance. There's a broader spectrum of emotions and story ideas out there I'm trying to explore in comics, like, lust, rage, revenge, violence, street justice, drug abuse, nudity and sexiness. The sum of which is Exploitation. To be clear, I don't think that all indie comics are as I've described. It's the indie comic stereotype – that is well anchored in reality – that Night Business is a reaction to.

There isn't a specific response I'm trying to elicit, really. I'm just trying to make the type of comic I'd like to read, that I haven't seen on the spinner racks in a while. But I am hoping to connect with people the same way the Exploitation genre does, at base-level human emotions we try to suppress or deny. I don't want to make work that is safe or boring to me. The subject-matter has to excite me enough in order for me to make it. It just comes out the way it does. How people respond to it is beyond my threshold of control. But, the response I've gotten to Night Business has been overwhelmingly positive.

With regards to how I identify myself: I am an indie comic creator but I don't really see myself that way. I think my books are more aligned to "Underground" comics. But I'm trying desperately to make a mainstream comic book, or what I want mainstream comic books to be like. I just happen to be doing it myself, independent of any major publishing house.

Follow-Up to 1.: There have been a few big go-rounds in the comics blogosphere on the subject of autobio comics and their discontents. Probably the clearest and most forceful response to the point of view you've expressed is a post by Tom Spurgeon titled, "My Pet Peeve #2329: Whining About Bad Autobio, Refusing to Name Any Names." When he posed that challenge to A. David Lewis over this post, Lewis quickly backed off. When Heidi MacDonald essentially reiterated Lewis's complaint, Spurgeon reiterated his criticism in the comments: "More strawmen — you’re still not naming names." When Noah Berlatsky lined up against autobio comics, T. Hodler of Comics Comics criticized him in response, but acknowledged, "At least Berlatsky has the courage to name names" (Berlatsky has specifically, ferociously, and repeatedly ripped into Jeffrey Brown, for example). Since "naming names" seems to be a big deal in this debate, would you like to . . . well, name some names, or explain why not? Also, are there any other points made by Spurgeon or Hodler (or any other commenters) you'd like to address?

I wasn't aware of that online discussion about the criticism of indie autobio comics and subsequent criticism of the criticism, which appears to be well-founded. First off, I should say that I don't read autobiographical comics or comic memoirs. I dismiss them outright usually because the subject matter doesn't appeal to my tastes, and I'd rather spend my time reading something else, like X-O Manowar. So, it's difficult for me to name to names. My perception of autobio comics, while I believe to be valid, I'm willing to concede as being flawed, stale and naive because my experience is incomplete. Still, Night Business is a reaction to that perception, whether it's accurate or not. I've never read any of Jeffrey Brown's books but from looking over the reviews you linked to I'd say it sounded like a book Night Business is a reaction to. I've never read David Heatley's stuff but from what I've read about it, it sounds like work Night Business is a response to. I read a collection of Optic Nerve, far from the complete work, and that was definitely a book I wanted Night Business to be the opposite of.

I'll go further to say Night Business is not just a reaction to my perception of indie autobio comics but also a reaction to comics I see as trying to usher the form into a legitimate literary sphere. Some of those works – some of which are autobiographical – would be Maus, Persepolis, Blankets, Jimmy Corrigan, Optic Nerve and Asterios Polyp. While those works are all formally successful, inventive, awesome demonstrations of the comic language, critically lauded and beloved, I disagree with them creatively at a fundamental, philosophical level as comic books. Comics have had a sordid and disreputable history. From traditionally foul business practices to Seduction of the Innocent to the McCarthy hearings to the effects of the direct market, comics have achieved a relatively hideous station in popular culture which is where I'd like them to return and stay. I don't believe comics should be precious books printed on archival paper telling serious stories that examine our interpersonal relationships. I believe the form should be cheap, gutter-level, throw-away entertainment with stories that appeal to our most base emotions, fantasies and desires. I'd like for comics to be full of dangerous ideas that parents wouldn't want their kids to read. I believe this to be comics true nature.

Even further still, Night Business is also a reaction to decompressed, mainstream superhero comics and their depiction of heroes. I remember looking forward to the Avengers: Disassembled story arc. I'd heard a lot of great things about Bendis as a writer and I was severely disappointed with the series. I disagree with the philosophy of decompressing stories for serialized comic book issues. As a response, I intentionally try to pack in as much story as I can in any comic that I make. The other thing I'm reacting to is my perception of the way heroes are depicted in mainstream comics as spineless, indecisive and fearful of making the wrong choice. Not all mainstream heroes fit this description. I wanted Johnny to operate in his own code of honor outside the law, be totally confident in his ability to mete out justice and have no problem doing it as savagely as he saw fit. So, I guess I'd say Night Business is my reaction to my perception of indie autobio comics, as well as very successful literary comics, my perceptions and problems with mainstream superhero comics and my attempt make a comic that supports my idealized philosophy of where comics ought to be stationed in popular culture: as pure trash entertainment.

2. I enjoyed your remarks on the New Action panel about how giallo movies partly inspired NB. I love them, too, and was wondering if any in particular stand out in your mind or made an especially powerful impression on you. Any specific scenes burned into your memory? Some of your borrowings from the genre are big and obvious, like the violence, sexual aspects, and character of the masked slasher, but did all that viewing influence your aesthetic in ways that might not be so apparent? Besides the movies themselves, a lot of your splash-pages look like the cover art on those big Wizard videotape boxes--how much has that kind of packaging influenced you?

The first Giallo I watched was Your Vice Is A Locked Room And Only I Have The Key. I picked it up at my local video store, when I was living in Philly, for no real reason. It was just released on DVD. The scene where Edwige Fenech comes on screen will be forever etched or seared onto my brain until I die. It was like an awakening of what true beauty was. I was floored by her magnificence. I watched the rest of the movie with great interest. It was fantastic. I started renting all the movies Edwige was in, many of which were Giallo. None of them replicated my initial experience seeing Edwige on screen for the first time and I adored her manipulative character in Your Vice ... . Strip Nude For Your Killer overall is very much a template for Night Business. There was a scene where Edwige's character is drugged and taken advantage of by a Satanic cult which resonated with me. I believe it was in The Case Of The Bloody Iris but I could be wrong.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm even aware of what effect viewing all those movies had on my aesthetic for Night Business in ways other than what you listed. My aesthetic for Night Business is mainly influenced by comic book art, as far as the drawing goes. But more broadly, the tone of Night Business – totaled from the subject matter, drawing and the sappy, over-the-top, melodramatic dialogue and language – is an attempt to replicate the overall aesthetic of Giallo films. Beyond those elements though I am not conscious of what readers might be picking up on aesthetically.

I don't know if I was looking at Wizard videotape boxes but definitely VHS box packaging has had a huge impact on me as an artist. I wasn't necessarily thinking of packaging when I was composing the splash pages. For those I was just thinking of them as a larger panel fit into the larger panel-to-panel and page-to-page structure of communicating the story. But, perhaps that kind of packaging is so ingrained in my head I may have been unconsciously referencing to them.

3. All art draws to some extent from prior sources for inspiration and influence, but we seem to be living in an Age of Homage. Tarantino, of course, brought that notion into popular consciousness in a big, explicit way, but a tremendous amount of stuff now (and some of the best of it, in my opinion) seems preoccupied with processing whole periods and genres in a way that sums them up or distills their essence. Night Business plainly is homage in this sense, and you're perfectly upfront about that. Why do you think our current period of genre entertainment is so deeply immersed in homage? Do we just need to collectively "digest" gluts of material from previous periods before we can move forward? Individually, what draws you to this approach to engaging and working through your inspirations and influences?

I agree with the Age of Homage idea. I'm not exactly sure why we seem to be looking to the past as a source of creative inspiration so intently these days. It may be out of a profound need for sentiment and nostalgia for things we grew up watching. If that's true maybe it's our desire to retain our youth? Maybe that's too psycho-analytical. It could be, as far as the mainstream cinema goes, where everything that comes out seems to be based on a successful movie from a prior decade, those things make money. There's that idea of "Pre-Awareness" that Jeff Katz talks about in Hollywood. People tend to consume things they already have knowledge of. Product that is completely new to consumers may be dismissed before the consensus gives it a chance to succeed. It's just more of a sure thing to recycle something that's worked before. I don't think Tarantino operates that way. I'm talking about the Big Studio, Hollywood machine.

On the other hand, as you said, all art draws upon prior sources for inspiration and influence. To pick a ubiquitous art icon, Picasso's meditations on his influences, like El Greco, Ingres, Cezanne, comprised much of his efforts. And to pick a ubiquitous, pop-culture example, Star Wars is a riff on Saturday afternoon serials Lucas used to watch as a kid and has basis in The Hidden Fortress and Jack Kirby's Forth World saga. Also, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, originally was a satire of or homage to Frank Miller's Daredevil stories. Both those properties then transformed into their own worlds separate from their inspirational sources, and have become sources of inspiration for the current generation and those to come. So I wonder if this Age of Homage is an ever-occurring natural order of popular culture and entertainment and it's become more intense because we have more resources to draw from as time progresses and more things are created.

Individually, I don't know why it's in me to mine previous genre movements that came before me for creative ideas. I know that's all I've done as an artist since making pictures. It was a matter of timing in my own artistic development that connected me with Giallo and other influences that spawned Night Business. I know that, as I said before, I've got to be excited about something in order to make it. I know that elements of Giallo and Exploitation very much excite me to the point where I feel compelled to make something.

4. What influences have found their way into Night Business that aren't related to any movies, comics, videogames, etc.? Could you recount a couple of non-entertainment experiences that have been distinctly formative to your vision, style, or approach as a creator?

Two things come to mind and both are from the art education I received. One is studying for a semester in Florence, Italy, and learning about pre-Renaissance painters like Giotto and Fra Angelico. The painter who had a big impact on me, which is still evident to me when I look at the drawings in Night Business, is Piero Della Francesca. Particularly the stiffness of the figures, the naive attitude and vacant faces. Also, looking at the way these painters chose to convey information in order to tell a story was important to me.

The second experience was working on my MFA thesis in grad school, which was a comic book. David Mazzucchelli was my adviser and I labored over each step in the process of the comic, from thumbnails, to script, to character design, to preparing the board for the final pencils, to filing my pen nibs to create the perfectly angled lettering nib with perfect thickness, practicing my lettering skills, practicing my Windsor Newton Series 7 skills, etc. It was obsessive. When I sat down to do Night Business I did the complete opposite. I hardly planned anything. I just started drawing panels on the board, making up the story and words as I went along. It eventually began to write itself but it was an extremely organic evolution. I barely penciled the first two issues, preferring to leave much of the drawing to chance when I inked it. This approach contributes to the style of Night Business. I don't want to over-think anything like I did with my thesis. I try to be decisive with the choices I make and not let any doubt creep in, which it used to do and would paralyze me. So my thesis prepared me for how I would execute Night Business.

5. The style of your art seems peculiarly well-suited to the kind of story you're telling here. To what extent is that just a natural development, and to what extent have you deliberately cultivated your style in this direction? Looking back, are there points where you had to make choices about which direction your art should take--where you might have chosen differently, and your style might have developed along an entirely different trajectory? How is your art continuing to evolve? Where do you see room for improvement, and are you taking any special steps (study, exercises, etc.) toward achieving that?

The art style for Night Business is very much based on the work of Marc Laming inked by John Stokes for the Vertigo series American Century from several years ago. It was written by Howard Chaykin and David Tischman and lasted about 27 issues. It remains one of my all-time favorite comics and I wanted Night Business to have the same look. Of course, despite my best, most intense efforts to be like Laming and Stokes I fail on every panel. But I accept that failure as my own personal style and thus Night Business's style. So, it was a deliberate choice to aim for a specific drawing style for the story, and miss.

At the same time, though it was a conscious move, I arrived at the style naturally through my own artistic development. I've always been trying to eliminate any doubt from entering my image-making process. I used to second guess my choices during my process all the time. The work on the paper never would be as interesting as how I imagined it could be in my mind. To solve this problem I stopped planning things out, doing sketches or penciling. I'd just go straight to the ink. I chose cheap pens and paper to work on to make the drawings less precious. Those drawing experiments I kept in a notebook for a few years and constituted my portfolio in acquiring freelance illustration work. I used what I learned from creating those drawings in my notebook to inform my approach to drawing Night Business. I did do sketches of every page for the third issue of Night Business, however. I have gotten confident enough in my process to allow myself to sketch things out this time.

Another big choice was to actively stop using a brush to ink my comic book work. I'm a huge Kirby fan (who isn't?) and I love Sinnott and Royer's brush work on top of the King's pencils. I believe that is the zenith of comic book artwork. But the brush isn't a natural fit for how I approach a drawing mentally. I prefer also the tactile experience of scraping a pen across the board over the airy, soft feel of a brush. The pen supports my overall, stiff style as well and gives it a more naive look, which I like.

My art, like anyone else making pictures or objects, continues to evolve always. I used to push myself and force myself out of my comfort zones a lot more than I do now. I don't do any exercises or studying. I do look at and read a ton of comic books, as I always have. But I believe the best way to improve at something is simply to do it, not to do exercises on the side to improve one's technique. I see my own development like this: Through experimentation with many methods, materials and approaches I expanded my spectrum of experience in making pictures. Having done that I have now settled on a way of working that is the most creatively satisfying to me, and serves my comic book and storytelling efforts the best. I always see room for improvement in my stuff. I actually only see the flaws in my work. Where this used to debilitate my productivity before now I accept those faults and try to celebrate them even. It's those flaws in my drawings that define me.

6. One of the things that impressed me when I looked at the character design sketches posted on your blog was the detail that Johnny's slacks are pleated. It's a small thing, but a nice period touch. Just a few years ago, I read Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho for the first time, and was struck and amused at how often the main character mentions the pleats in his slacks. Do you use a lot of research or visual reference material, or are all these little details of this world just in your head?

I should point out here that those character designs were largely created during or after I finished the first issue of Night Business. I don't use visual reference material or photos at all, except in designing Alexis' hair style. I looked at a picture of Dolly Parton on a mug to get her hair do. I actually think if I used too much reference material it would corrupt the innocent passion, the moronic certainty, the untrained devotion which underlie Night Business.

For instance, Johnny's sports car. It's a generic sports car I drew from my imagination. It looks sort of like a sports car from that time period but you can tell I'm faking it. I wouldn't want Johnny to drive a 1982 Chevy Corvette, I want him to drive what's essentially the idea of a sports car. Anything too specific would subvert the reading experience I'm trying to create. It's more important for me to communicate the idea of something than it is to be precise. It's consistent with how I draw, too, it's not perfect but it gets the idea across and I'm going to try to sell it hard to the reader.

I think Kirby felt that way when he was drawing. It was more about telling the story, the composition within the panels, the sense of discovery in the story, his emotional investment in the subject matter. It was not about whether or not he drew the correct architectural details on a building in Midtown. I believe that should be a fundamental thing in comics but think too many comic artists rely too heavily on photographic reference for their information or are taught that. Comics is a system of icons that when assembled can communicate a story in a very rich way. Once comic artists focus to much on accuracy of realistically depicting something from our real world they get away from the fact that they are creating drawings, illusions and symbols.

7. Anything else? Any other projects you want to let us know about (like that American Tradition Comics universe-wide crossover event you're working on)? Any big plans for Halloween? Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions!

Right now I have Night Business, Issue 3, on the drafting table. I'm hoping it will be done early next year. I have a ten-page story I'm doing for a comic anthology I'm working on. I have a new comic I'm set to work on after those two things are finished. My plan is to put out an issue of Night Business and an issue of something else, completely unrelated. I changed the name of American Tradition Comics to just Traditional Comics. I'll be setting up that website soon and hopefully start publishing some other people's comics whose work I like.

No plans for Halloween. Probably just stay in and get some drawing done. Thanks so much for inviting me to do the interview. Your questions were awesome. I hope I made sense in my answers. And I hope I don't hurt people's reading experiences with Night Business answering everything so academically. It's not very consistent with the Night Business attitude which deplores intelligence. Night Business is not academic. It's about cold reality of The City and lacy lingerie.